Very ambitious and very ill with Emma Simpson of Lemon Soul

If you're sick of the one-size-fits-all approach to managing illness, Emma Simpson's story will resonate with you. This conversation encourages us to reject the pressure to adhere to conventional wellness practices and instead personalize our routines–a huge relief when there are so many “shoulds” around.

Emma has always been a remarkably ambitious woman but she had to leave her career as an Air Traffic Controller due to chronic illness. During this drastic life shift, Emma turned to open water swimming and writing. Host Rachel Katz and Emma talk about how she was able to do this all while being the primary breadwinner and raising young children. As she says in the conversation, slowing down wasn’t the path for her but finding balance was. 

Emma’s info: 

• Substack: Lemon Soul
• Book: Breaking Waves
• Instagram: @emmasimpsonauthor

🔥 Rachel's Substack, Inner Workings: https://raekatz.substack.com/

✨ Ladies Illness Library written interviews: https://raekatz.substack.com/s/ladies-illness-library

🎶Music "Upbeat Defiant Challenge Funky Groove" by Uroboros Music, licensed through Audio Jungle

Transcript

Rachel: 

Welcome back to the Ladies Illness Library, where we talk to women about unconventional illness journeys. So many women today have a collection of these hard to diagnose symptoms, random fatigue, gut things, skin stuff, and these often alter the course of our lives. Here, we're trying to bring those stories to light and learn from them. I'm Rachel Katz. I was a super ambitious young woman. I started my career at McKinsey and company, and then I started a company, and I ran it for five years as CEO before selling it. During that journey, I developed a range of health issues, including an autoimmune disease, anxiety, infertility, fatigue, and endless gut issues. Basically, I'm curious about it all. I'm curious about how my story is similar to others and how it's different. So that's what we're doing here, exploring these stories, my Substack inner workings and this special segment, the ladies Illness Library, can be found at raekatz.substack.com. that's raekatz.substack.com. 

Today I'm talking with Emma Simpson, a delightfully personable and extremely driven woman whose career as an air traffic controller was cut short by a constellation of symptoms. These included chronic fatigue, anxiety, fibromyalgia, vertigo, and more. And honestly, this list is starting to sound really repetitive if you listen. Often in the darkest period of her life, Emma turned to open water swimming, and she began writing seriously. She got her first book deal at the age of 51. Her book, breaking Waves, which explores the relationship between women and water, comes out next March. You are such a dynamic person. That is very obvious, and I want to start with one of your passions, which is wild swimming.

Emma: 

Yep.

Rachel: 

What is it? Tell me about it, and tell me what you love about it.

Emma: 

Okay, well, thank you. Thanks for having me here. So, yeah, wild swimming, it's kind of a thing that I didn't grow up swimming or anything like that. But after some quite traumatic events in my mid to late thirties, when my daughter was born with neonatal meningitis, it was a really tricky time. And shortly after that, my brother died very, very abruptly. And it was like a real kind of place that ripped our family into, I was feeling particularly lost. And it was one of those things that about a few years later, when I was kind of in a fog, really, and just still not quite recovered through grief, through early childhood, early childbearing, and all the things that had gone with that. I mean, my daughter did survive, and she's now about to turn 18, but it was still such a really difficult time. And we were on a family holiday and I was still kind of not really existing, you know, I was still very much a shadow of my former self. And I just saw this advert for a sea swim, and I had never really done anything like that at all. I had nearly drowned in the sea in my twenties. I was really scared of the open water. 

I was scared of the things in the open water. I wasn't a strong swimmer, but I saw this and I just thought, God, you know, I just think I feel like I need to do this. I felt this real pull to the water and so I entered this event and it was just 500 meters. It wasn't a massive distance, but for me it was huge. And I got into the water. My husband was like, are you mad? You don't really swim? I was like, yeah, no, I'm going to give it a go. And I thought I was just like, fuck it, you know, I really feel like I need to just do this. And I had a second child by then and they were both really little. And I got in and it was just crazy. I just. Something kind of awoke in me. It sounds quite cliched, but it really did. As I got in the water and everyone there was in wetsuits and had all this gear and everything, and I was just there in a swimming pool.

Rachel: 

Oh, wow. So this was like a race. Oh, my God.

Emma: 

It was a proper thing, but I didn't realize that, right? I didn't. Had no idea. So I was there in my, like, a holiday swimsuit and flip flops. People were looking at me like, who the hell is this woman? And I got in and I did the swim and I came out and I was just like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. That's just shifted something in me. Like something really subtle, but really significant in many ways in the fact that I did something, that I was brave, that I pushed myself out. But it also kind of gave me this real connection, I think back to feeling, you know, I think we had, like, a lot of things, like grief and chronic illness, then you sort of can lose sight of the connection and the feeling you can just go quite numb. And I'd had, you know, I'm sure we'll talk about this with depression and all sorts of things, so. But that swim was just out of this world. And I just kept after that, getting drawn back and back towards the water. 

And over the subsequent years, it's become such a fundamental part of what I do. So for me now, I don't live by the coast. But I swim in a lake two or three times a week near where I live, and I do it all through the year, whether the water temperature is 20 degrees or zero degrees, degrees celsius, whether it's, you know, breaking ice with a hammer. And it's about the water, about the feeling, about the connection with nature, but also about the communities that form around water and people that understand. And an extraordinary amount of them are women, and women with chronic illnesses. So I have found so many people there who understand what people like us experience, whereas many people who I love dearly and who love me in my regular life don't have that understanding. So it's been quite life changing.

Rachel: 

Yeah, it's really interesting that you kind of automatically frame it as your regular life and then your kind of undercover illness life. It can definitely feel like that. So this is the subject of your first book, which is very exciting, and you got your first book deal at 51. Congratulations. And it's coming out in March.

Emma: 

Coming out March 2025. Yeah. It's called breaking waves, and it's healing, discovery, and inspiration in the open water. And it is. It started out being about some swimmers I was following as they were doing a big event, a channel swim, actually. It really changed. It came away from that completely. And as ironically as the COVID pandemic hit and the lockdown happened and we couldn't really swim, I started meeting people online to talk about. About their experiences. So it became much less local and became very global. And then I started speaking to women all across the world, from Fiji to Finland, Africa to Canada, about their experiences in the open water. And so often women had gone there for reasons of comfort, connection, not even quite knowing what they were there for, whether it was through grief or whether it was through some chronic illness and things like that. And finding just this newfound joy and connection with each other and ourselves. 

You know, it's about connecting back with the person that you are or were. Because I think one of the things, and one of your guests touched on it last week, Sarah, that, you know, I think we have when we've got chronic illness, is that loss of identity, you know, because especially when it can be career limiting or career ending, as it was for me as a former air traffic controller, you know, once. Once you leave a world or your body doesn't do what it always did anymore and everything is irrevocably changed, then there's this huge identity struggle of, well, if I'm not that, then who am I? You know? And what does that mean? For me, and we're so labeled in our society as. By what we do. And so I found that really difficult. But so many people I met there, it's like, okay, here, I don't need to have that label. And I managed to find my new identity and just have just been me, do you know what I mean? Just exist as me without it being like, oh, I'm Emma the air traffic controller, or I'm Emma the this. Or even I'm Emma the mother. You know, there. I'm not parenting, I'm there as me. And there's something so powerful about that.

Rachel: 

Yeah, it sounds incredible. And I'm someone who's pretty, I'd say, like, moderately to very scared of deep water and open water, and the idea of doing the things that you're describing, are you fairly terrifying to me? And I'm curious to like what you would say to someone like me.

Emma: 

Well, I would say that I was like that, and I'm not altogether over my fear now. So there are still things that scare me. I swim at night. Swimming at nighttime is terrifying when you can't see what's in the water and swimming in some deep locks, like in Scotland, in the UK, when I go into the locks, and there are big things in those waters, there are big jellyfish in the sea locks and there are big fish in the land locks, you know? So what I would say to you is, I would firstly say, do it in a safe environment. So the place that I go to is a manned lake. It's an old quarry, and it's lifeguarded and it's totally safe. So I would not just say, right, go find a piece of water and chuck yourself in it, you know, it couldn't be further from that. I would just say, be safe. If you go to the sea, go with people who know the sea, know the tides, understand the water, understand the currents, make sure you do it in a safe environment so that you've got the. That side of the danger taken care of. But for me, there was much more around the. It's the psychological thing. It's the. What lies beneath, what's under the water. What if I touch something? What if seaweed touches me? 

I hate buoys. You know, the things that float and the ropes that are under the water, they give me the heebie jeebies. So it's a real challenge every time. But getting in there and getting in there in a secure environment or with a friend, with a buddy, particularly, you come out and you feel absolutely invincible, you know, and there are days when, you know, like. Like most chronic illnesses where I ebb and flow massively in my health. You know, I've had a pretty rough couple of weeks, but today I'm coming out of it. And when I go down to the water, even if I can't swim or I can just get in and immerse, it's. It's quite transformational. So, yeah, I think that's another thing, is that you, you know, you don't have to go down to the open water and go out of your depth. You know, you don't have to go down there and go and swim a mile. You can go down there and go up to your knees and sit down on the shore and let it go over your legs, you know, and just smell the air and look around you. So there's no, I said, any expectation on how it needs to be.

Rachel: 

It's such an interesting thing yet to be drawn to. I'm excited to read the book. When it comes out, it sounds like the fact that it is a challenge every time and does force you to confront a certain fear each time, in addition to the fact that it's in nature, it almost kind of pulls you out of whatever else you were in. And I think that people turn to all sorts of things to do that, but this seems like a very effective one that you've found.

Emma: 

Yeah. And I think you're right, because people will tend to do all sorts of things, whether those are things that are good for us or not so good for us. And that's completely understandable. And I would have done that as well, you know, because there's times where you're just like, I'll do anything, or, you know, I'm going to have a glass of wine or I'm going to do this, which, you know, things that, you know are not the best for you, but you're just so much, so tired of whatever it is you're dealing with, whether it's the pain or the, you know, the constant symptoms that you might have. Think about the cold water in particular. So that's what really drew me in, and I think that's obviously become a lot more popular in the UK anyway, since COVID Like now, there's people swimming in all sorts of places that you would never have seen people swim. There's something particularly about the cold water that gives a real release, because when you go into the cold water, all you can focus on you do go into survival kind of limbic brain fight or flight mode, and your body does go through this shock reaction, and you have to breathe deeply and slowly and your focus goes to a sharp pinpoint of what is happening in your body at that moment. 

So if you have a very busy brain, like I do, I think like a lot of us do, when I swim in warm water, my brain is still chattering to me and talking shit. And I might be writing a chapter of my book, but there's still a lot of, you know, noise going on. But in the cold, it is magical because all my body's doing is breathing. Okay, you can do this, get through. And then it's just really. It's quite visceral. I mean, in my book, I almost compare it. I sort of compare it to sex in a way. It's like it's this extraordinary depth of physical sensation that consumes your body as the water envelops you. And that's all you're in at the moment. So then. And it can be quite painful, I mean, because it's cold. So whilst your body's going, ah, what the hell, all your other things have gone away. So do you know what I mean? Like the aching limbs or. For me, there's some skin stuff and all sorts of things, but there, it's like I'm dealing with the sensation in the moment and then you get through the initial and it's just bliss. You get the flood of dopamines, you get the euphoria. It's extraordinary.

Rachel: 

That's cool. Very cool. Still scary, but to me. But you've made a good case.

Emma: 

Try it. We'll find someone. Go with a friend, get someone.

Rachel: 

Totally, yeah. I've experienced, like a little corner of this, you know, swimming in a pond or swimming in, you know. But I'm not one to seek out this kind of swimming yet, but who knows? I can see how that works and I can see the effectiveness, the mechanisms by which it would really be effective, and then, unlike drinking a glass of wine, you come out the other side feeling amazing.

Emma: 

There is loads of anecdotal, sorry, there's loads of scientific evidence around it, but when I. In my book, that's not the route I go down at all, because there are scientists who write about that and it's amazing and it's great, and they go into all the science of what's happening in your hormones and body chemicals. But my thing is very much, it's the anecdotal and the experiential side of what we feel. And, you know, one of the women I spoke to, just extraordinary things, like, she did a swim in Antarctica and talks about how when she was swimming there doing an ice mile, when she does do quite extreme stuff. So that's a mile in water that's less than five degrees celsius. I mean, yeah, proper hardcore stuff. She is amazing. And I asked her to talk about really significant moments there. She said it wasn't about how far she'd gone or how cold it was or how long she'd gone. She said it was about noticing the taste of an iceberg, because amidst the salt water, she could suddenly taste cold, fresh water meeting the salt. And she was in the icebergs and she said. So, yeah, I was just there and tasting an iceberg and I was like, wow. Oh, my. There's something very fundamental about it.

Rachel: 

Totally. I just got the chills. Yeah, yeah. I want to talk about this huge life shift that happened. You were an air traffic controller and now you are publishing a book. What? Yeah. What went down there? What happened?

Emma: 

So I was an air traffic controller for 16 years in the UK at places like Gatwick, in the tower and in the radar center. And I loved my job, it was a great job. But a few years after the events happened, with my daughter's birth and my brother's death, I just started to become unwell. And interestingly, before my daughter was born, I was actually really well, I did not have chronic illness as a child. Like, I've listened to quite a lot of your podcast. I know it's very variable and some people got their illnesses at quite young ages and teenagers, etcetera. I was diagnosed with pernicious anemia in my twenties, which is an autoimmune condition. So I have a kind of blueprint for autoimmune vulnerabilities. But I was always really well once that was under control, good through pregnancy. But after those two events happened and kind of pulled the rug out from under me completely, I didn't really pay enough attention to the, I suppose, the mental needs that I had in terms of processing grief and stuff like that. 

So I just did what I think a lot of people do and I kept really busy and I went back to work early on my maternity leave, and then I got promoted and did more work and then moved house and had another baby and kind of did all this stuff, like subconsciously just trying to shut out everything that had happened that tore my life apart. And it got to a point where my body and my mind just started to protest. And I remember really clearly when I was working at Gatwick and it was my favorite job. I loved being at Gatwick Tower. It's the busiest Runway in the world. So exciting, lovely people I work with. And one day I was due to go on what they call a familiarization flight, where you sit in the cockpit with pilots. So we would have exchanges where we would go and sit on a flight deck so we could understand what it was like to be a pilot. 

And then pilots would come into the air traffic tower and understand what it was like on our side because we were obviously speaking to each other all day. And particularly when you're dealing with emergencies and things, you need to understand each other's environments. And I got out of bed that morning to go on this familiarization flight and swung my feet out of bed and stood up and then fell over. And my legs just went from under me immediately. And I was like, okay, what's this all about? Tried to walk, but couldn't walk. Tried to get down the stairs, had to shuffle down. And it was. It was. My balance had gone. So it wasn't that my legs weren't working, it was that my body just didn't know what way was up. So I started helicoptering and just kind of falling over. It led to six months of time pretty much off work, which was quite devastating because I was doing great at Gatwick. It was where I'd always wanted to be. 

And there were some interesting things that came out of this. Firstly, well, from the illness side, it was vestibular migraines, benign positional vertigo, and I just couldn't find the ground. If I went into a supermarket or something, I'd be on the floor. So for a long time, I couldn't leave the house, couldn't really walk straight at all. And then I had six months of what's called vestibular rehabilitation therapy, where I had to learn which way was up by, you know, sitting there and shutting my eyes and turning my head left and right and up and down and following dots on the wall and walking forwards and backwards from them. All sorts of strange, crazy looking stuff to teach my brain which way was up again. Because what happened is I'd lost 40% balance function in my left ear. I mean, everything that was like the world was a sponge when I went out walking. And my youngest kid was about two, which was great because she had a push paw, so I could hold.

Rachel: 

Oh, my goodness.

Emma: 

Yeah, it was like I had a zimmer frame, which was. Which was what I needed. I couldn't walk unaided. The first time I remember going out to try and get something, I said to my husband, look, I'm going to go to the shops. I'm going to go to our bookshop. I'm just going to go up the road. And I got as far as a lamppost and rang him crying, saying, you've got to come and get me. Because I was holding the lamppost. I was like, I can't let go. It was extraordinary. But one of the other interesting thing about that was it was my first insight into, I suppose it comes to the hidden disabilities topic and people not believing you, because one of my work friends came round to take me out for lunch as I was getting much better, I was still shaky on my feet, but I could go out. I mean, I couldn't drive. He drove me. 

So we went and we had lunch, and I remember going to the loo at one point, and when I came back, he was like, oh, yeah. I was just seeing how well you could walk or something. And I was like, huh? He said, oh, yeah? Well, people at work think you're making it up. I was like, well, why the hell would I make it up? Why would I make it up? I mean, I can't tell you, but I still get the same sad feelings when I count that story now, like, ten, because I was doing really well at my job. That was great. You know, I was on course to qualify in record time. I was having a great time. There was. There was no logical reason, why would I make it up? This is just ruining my life. This is potentially ending my career. And you've come around to check that I can walk okay. Do you know what I mean? And I don't know how often you come across this where people are just scrutinized and disbelieved and, you know, but just because it's not the normal and it's so, so upsetting and so devastating.

Rachel: 

What did you say to him? Do you remember?

Emma: 

I'm just trying to think. I remember sitting there clearly and just being, like, aghast and saying, well, of course it's real. And he was just like, oh, yeah, well, it wasn't me. He thought that it was so and so. And, you know, just. I was like, I cannot believe you. I cannot believe this. Yeah, but, you know, it was a real first insight into that world, into how not even in the medical profession, which is a whole other conversation about how. How you may not get taken seriously, but how even by people who are your, your friends and close to you after that, I did get through the vestibular rehabilitation therapy. It remains a vulnerability for me. And dizziness is one of my first markers of when I'm not not doing too well. But yeah, the therapy was amazing. There were so many videos of things like roller coasters that I had to watch. I mean, it. The strangest stuff. And even now, like, if I watch a tv program and this and the end titles come down too quickly, I'm like, oh, that feeling. Or I'm going to go into still, if I go into really overwhelming department stores and supermarkets, like, oh, God, I'm going to fall over. But I watched loads of that. I trained in my brain to kind of be able to manage it. It was crazy. I never even knew this thing existed.

Rachel: 

I also didn't know. I can't believe you did this all when you had a two year old. That's the main thing I'm stuck on. I have a two year old currently.

Emma: 

I have a two year old and a four year old.

Rachel: 

That's insane. I mean, that is, you know.

Emma: 

Yeah. And the girls used to sit on the edge of the sofa. Well, I sit on the edge of the sofa and I do this thing where I had to shut my eyes and move my head left and right 60 times in three minutes or whatever to do the therapy. And my husband would have photos if they both sit on the sofa on either side of me with their eyes shut, moving their heads left and right, you know, but they didn't know. And I say that the push chair was an absolute godsend.

Rachel: 

Wow. Yeah. That is one great thing about young kids. They just kind of go with it. They're not judging you, they're not disbelieving you.

Emma: 

Not at all. And, you know, mommy was suddenly home a lot, you know, so that was that. There was no, I didn't go. I didn't go to the hospital. I didn't go away. I was there. So, yeah. So after that, then some of the mental health side of it started to come out. And this is how I opened the book, actually. It's about the last time I was on a night shift at Gatwick. And I didn't really know much about depression or anxiety then either. It doesn't run in my family. It's not something I suffered previously. And I'm talking, where are we now? I'm talking like, I think maybe 2011, 1012 years ago. So it wasn't talked about in the way that it is now. And all I knew was that there was a lot of noise in my head. I wasn't sleeping, that I was catastrophizing as I now know it's called ruminating. You know, it was just, there was so much. 

And the biggest irony is that everyone thinks that air traffic control is the most stressful career in the world. And I was like, no, life is stressful. Air traffic control. Air traffic control is like relief. I'd go in and put my headset on and be like, oh, God. Now all I need to think about is planes and keeping them all separated and, you know, take off the landing, which sounds a bit bonkers, but it was when I took my headset off and then all the demons would come in that I thought, I can't. I can't do this any longer. Because what if. Because what if I can't block it out? I have a really massively responsible job and what if all these things that are going on become too much and I make a mistake? I can't consciously carry on. So I held my hands up and said, help me, I'm drowning. And then that was it. My operational air traffic career was over. Wow.

Rachel: 

So it was basically you making a call that you didn't feel like you could take the risk of doing that job with the various mental and physical health problems.

Emma: 

Yeah, exactly that. And sadly, I did know a lot of air traffic controllers who had similar. Who was, well, not with the physical side, but subsequently I came to know because I was quite a. Well, I wasn't that open about it, actually, at first, but I told a few close people. But since I became more open about it, I did discover that there were quite a lot of air traffic controllers who suffered with depression. And sadly, because at that point, it has changed now I must stress. But at that point, you weren't allowed to be an air traffic controller on antidepressant medication. So it's a choice to keep quiet or lose your job. So, yeah, which is awful. So people would keep quiet. But I just, I didn't, I just couldn't. I was too ill, I couldn't. And I went to the doctor and sort of said, you know, I think this. And then I just cried and slept for three weeks and got treatment and got onto antidepressant medication and that kind of changed my life and therapy and had a lot of therapy, went through the grieving process and sort of tried to come out the other side. But that was really, that was really only the first part, I think there's like, I find like there's three distinct phases of what I experienced. That was really the first part that was coming away from the operational side of my work. I ended up leaving that company, getting myself more well. But then I did stay in aviation, and I'm a very driven person, I can tell. And so I joined the Civil Aviation Authority, which is our, you know, like the FAA equivalent, so our regulator for aviation in the UK. But then I had, you know, I didn't have to do shift work anymore, and I was doing pretty well by then. I was on my meds. I was treated. I had had a lot of therapy. I'd become much more self aware. The physical symptoms had dissipated, and I then did a master's in my spare time, because why not?

Rachel: 

I mean, I've only known you for 29 minutes, but I feel the need to say classic Emma.

Emma: 

I love that. That is exactly what my friends are saying.

Rachel: 

Well, but I do want to, like, call myself on it, too, though. Cause, like, there is also this thing that happens, which I think you've written about when you have a lot of illness, too, and people are telling you you're doing too much.

Emma: 

Yeah.

Rachel: 

And, you know, when I read through your work and, you know, when I look back on a lot of periods in my life, even, quote, unquote, periods of rest, it's like the list of things is very long. You're like, raising kids, writing a book, doing a lot of cultural and just extroverted life events, friends, exercise. I think you wrote 100 substack essays in your first year on substack. So I'm curious, like, what slowing down looks like to you, you know, and I think it can differ in different times. But I'm curious, like, how you think about slowing down. Have you slowed down? Or do you slow down in cycles? Or, like, how do you think about that whole process and that whole balance of you're a vibrant, driven person and you have this kind of nagging set of illnesses that are never going to go away?

Emma: 

Well, Rachel, I mean, I can almost see my husband's eyes rolling somewhere where? With that question. Because, you know, that is a great question. And one I ask myself a lot, and one the people around me asked me, like, what does slowing down look like? So, you know, I came out of the air traffic thing, and then I went into this very senior career in the CIA, and then I took myself out of that after five years. So this is the kind of the more fundamental thing of how I thought I was slowing down. After five years there, I got very sick again. I started to have panic attacks. I got diagnosed with chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, mast cell activation disorder, only to then be told that that didn't exist. But anyway, my body was just giving up the ghost again. And I was off sick for two weeks, then three weeks, then four months, then three months, and then I was just like. I almost had a period of, like, over five years, about maybe one and a half to two years of sickness, and was like, this is insane. What is going on with me? You know, I've had therapy, I've had everything. Why am I still right?

Rachel: 

You should have solved it by now.

Emma: 

I should have solved it by now, right? I'm like, and what do you want me to do? Oh, my God. So, you know, the world's telling me to stop. So then we made, like, a really seismic family decision and that I came out of that job and we sold our house. So a bit of a backdrop to this as well was I was the breadwinner, my husband's a firefighter, which is an amazing job, but it just doesn't pay that well. And certainly in the south of England where I live, it doesn't pay the mortgage. So I always had them. Carried the financial pressure at that point. But we had a very life changing kind of conversation when everything was going to shit. I mean, everything was going to shit. My health, our marriage, everything. And, you know, he's happy for me to. To say that.

Rachel: 

I mean, I think it's almost inevitable, you know, when things get that hard, that the relationship gets a big strain, too.

Emma: 

Yeah. And he. He then suffered from depression. I think it was possibly, quite possibly in a response to everything that we'd gone through. We had some with him, he had some couples therapy. And when we were having a conversation there, it was one of those sort of life changing moments where the therapist said to us, said something about, you know, what can we do to make this change? Because it needs to change. Like, I'm getting sick all the time. And he said something like, well, Emma won't sell the house. And I said, well, yeah, I will. And he's like, but you love the house. He said, well, I do love the house, but it's just a house. It's just a house. I'll sell the house. So that was it. It was just one of those, like, moments of, oh, my God. 

So we sold the house. And it was during the first pandemic year, and we did actually manage to sell it. And we were very lucky because I had had a high paying career. We were very lucky that we could sell the house and move into a smaller house. And that was, you know, I appreciate that was an enormous position privilege to come from, to be able to do that. So this was like, you know, now we slow down. Okay, so now we. So this is what slowing down looked like to me. So I left that job, and I was like, right, okay, I'm not working in a senior role anymore. I'm not going to do it. So my kind of transition between that and becoming an author and trying to slow down was that I set up my own business for three years, and I ran a coaching company. I did another course at university and did coaching psychology, because I just. I wasn't able to, Rachel. I wasn't able to.

Rachel: 

No, I'm the same way. It's fascinating for me to listen to because it's like it's me talking, but you had a different career. But I'm exactly the same way. So I'm always really curious to hear how other people like this think about it. It's like, oh, yeah, I'm going to slow down. Okay. I'm gonna start a newsletter. I'm gonna do a podcast. I'm gonna do consulting on the side. I'm gonna, you know, like.

Emma: 

Exactly. And it's an ongoing story. Right. So I. Yeah.

Rachel: 

So where are you in that? Yeah, where are you?

Emma: 

Yeah. So we got to that. So we sold the house, I set up the coaching business, and thought, I'll write a book, write a book and run a business and carry on looking after kids. You know, that's fine. And, yeah, chronic fatigue. I did a lot of chronic fatigue treatment and then pacing and blah, blah, blah. You know, now I still have it. It doesn't go, but, you know. Yes. And I'm. My spoons and I know all that shit, but it's still, you know, sounds.

Rachel: 

Like you loved it.

Emma: 

Yeah, no, do you know what? Some. I've been, you know, a bit flippant. Some of it was extraordinarily helpful, and the community I met through it was extraordinarily helpful because that's where I first started. This is before I was on sub stack. So meeting people who understood and who empathized and we could share things like that. But, you know, a lot of it is stating the bleeding obvious. And it comes back to your question of, you know, the question of doing too much and what is, what does rest look like? So again, I feel like, you know, it's like hitting myself over the head with. With a hammer. Like, come on, m stop. So I eventually come to more recent times, and the third iteration of my health woes is when I really think I've got everything done, and, like, what else do you want me to do? I've sold my house, I've left the job. I've left it all completely, is that I've got this awful, chronic skin condition. I think you talked about it in one of them. One of the previous, about having hives all over my body. So they call it idiopathic spontaneous urticaria, which basically. Right.

Rachel: 

I have also had spontaneous urticaria, or whatever they call it, but it's hives.

Emma: 

I love that. Idiopathic spontaneous urticaria. So we don't know why the fuck you're getting it, when it's going to start, when it's going to stop. It's miserable. There's not much we can do about it. We're not interested in looking at it holistically, but, you know, just don't itch, don't scratch.

Rachel: 

I couldn't believe it when I went in, because this was actually not too far into my health journey. I didn't have any diagnoses, and I couldn't believe when I went in to the, like, skin doctor, it was still when I was, like, really earnestly trying to go to all the right specialists, and I was like, okay, I have these hives that go basically from my waist down to my ankles, like, every night. Or like, I was like, I have this itchy rash every night. And then she. She kind of said some stuff, and then she said that word. She said the spunty whatever. Urticaria. I don't even know how to pronounce it.

Emma: 

Yeah.

Rachel: 

And I was like, okay, what is it? She's like, oh, well, it's a. You know, it's urticaria. And, like, it took me, like, five minutes of asking questions for her to get her to say it's hot, like the word hives. Because I do think hives get more athletes. The problem, which is, like, no one knows what it is. It's just hives encompassing, like, so much.

Emma: 

No.

Rachel: 

And just, like, slapping a medical term on it, somehow it, like, shrouds the fact that we don't know at all what it is.

Emma: 

No, exactly. As I understand, it's probably very similar in the US, but the way things are treated here as well is they're very much treated in specialisms. So when I go to him and say, you know, I've got this all over my body, and it's. Or sometimes. And there's also eczema, and sometimes it bleeds and the pain is agonizing and it makes me cry. And sometimes there's welts and wheels and, like, almost like boils. And it's just like, unbearable. Like, unbearable. And then it makes my lymph nodes feel up and my limbs ache, and I can hardly lift a teacup because my joints get really swollen and, you know, and then the fatigue. So there's all these things around it. And I say, you know, can you look at it a bit more holistically? And the dermatologist is like, in a word, no.

Rachel: 

Right?

Emma: 

I mean, that's it. In a word.

Rachel: 

I mean, did they actually tell you? No, he did, actually.

Emma: 

I'm quoting verbatim. In a word.

Rachel: 

In a word, no. Wow.

Emma: 

Like, I'm here to look at this as a specialist. So this is how we work it in the UK. It's like you say, no, I'm not six. So, you know, that's what I respond to, that.

Rachel: 

I mean, it's just like, honestly. 

Emma: 

I mean, he is great. He's a great skin specialist, and he's put me on some immunosuppressant drugs, which are working, and steroids, you know, so I'm pumped up. So at the moment, I'm okay ish. But, you know, still. So, again, back to this site. What do I have to do to make this all stop? And. Okay, so my body's still saying to me, Emma, you're not resting enough. So I've come away from my coaching business, and now I'm just writing and raising teenagers. But, you know, I'm writing a book that is being published. So I'm going into a PR and marketing cycle. Pitching at the podcasts, festivals, talks, you know, marketing, all that, and writing a second book. And obviously, because I'm the way I am, I'm writing a third 4th in my well. And then, I mean, I don't even know if I should say this, Rachel, but, you know, I casually applied for a job in Antarctica to hold that thought for a minute.

Rachel: 

I will get back to that. So you mentioned at the beginning that, you know, when we were chatting that this week has been a bad one energy wise or it's been a lower time, and you are feeling better today. So, like, when that kind of week comes along, what do you do these days?

Emma: 

Well, I do clear the decks because I think, like many of us, I make choices, and sometimes I have to pay the price for the choices I make, and that's a very conscious thing I do. So I went to a festival this weekend with my husband, and we stayed in a tent. So the sleep was not great, the music was loud. We had a lovely, lovely time, but I'm ruined when I get back. So it's a bit like, I think a lot of people who have, like, ib's type thing, you know, it's like, well, I'll eat that, but I'll feel sick. And you. Sometimes you eat it anyway, right?

Rachel: 

Right.

Emma: 

Like, if I go to the festival, I'm going to be knackered, but I want to go to the festival because why shouldn't I go to the festival? Because I used to be able to go to festivals, you know, and that's the thing. So I did the festival and then I came back and I was ruined and I cleared the decks and, you know, the whole thing about rest. I wrote a Substack on rest, actually, just last week, ironically. And, yeah, I'm much better at recognizing when I do that the people that I surround myself with understand I'm no longer in that situation where I feel like a letdown or a flake and the narrative of, like, I'm useless and I can't do anything and I can't be relied on. That horrible narrative that followed me throughout the. Leaving two massive careers, you know, because I'm not well enough. So now the people that matter and the people that are in my life get it. So if I say I'm sorry, I'm bailing, they're not like, they don't make me feel like I'm a flake or I'm a, you know, a bad friend. They make. They. They cook me dinner and they make sure I'm okay. And they ask me if they. If I want to be driven to the lake just to get in the water. So I think it's really key by having people who will facilitate me being able to rest. And my husband, I mean, to be fair to him, he does get frustrated. 

And we had a really interesting conversation last week because he was like, how do we slow you down? How do we slow you down? And I said, look, I don't know. I'm not trying to make myself unwell. I'm really trying to slow down. But I said to him also, he's very driven. He's an international search and rescue worker. And we were sitting in the kitchen and I said, Tim, look, imagine you got ill, right, and your body just failed and you're used to flying off to Argentina or, you know, he does amazing things. Does earthquake rescue in turkey or flood rescue in Africa or does this. And he's always all over the place. And I said, you know, your job is incredible. But imagine you got unwell, and I said to you, all right, darling, just go and potter in the garden. You know, he's in his forties. I said, you wouldn't be able to do it. It's just. It's not as simple as saying, oh, Emma, you're unwell. Stop being a thriving, driven creative. You know, just. Just sit and read a book and chill. It doesn't work like that. And I'm much better at listening to my body, but when I'm creative, I'm. It brings me such energy and joy, and if I'm not allowed to do that, my mental health goes through the floor. It's such a fine balance. I think I said that in my notes to you. You know, the mind-body connection for me is so intricate, and, like, earlier in the week, when I had to clear the decks, my mental health was just ruined. I mean. I mean, really bad. Like, I mean, I don't want to sort of be alarmist, but I get to the point where I feel like I don't want to live like this. I'm not saying I don't want to live, but, you know, when my body is not allowing me, I. I get. I feel hopeless. Hopeless and isolated and lonely. Which is why things like the substat community and these conversations are so powerful in making us understand that we're not alone.

Rachel: 

Yeah, you've written that. You know, when you have. You know, when the. When it's only the mental health side that is kind of going south, for lack of a better word, you. You kind of, like, have a recipe for what to do, and it includes physical activity and exercise and, you know, the things that, you know, help make you feel good, but when it's your body that's down, there's. It's just like, what do you do? Because then it drags your mental health down, but you can't do the exercise and things. And, you know, I think that's probably a very common experience. It definitely resonated with me. It's sort of like I have a playbook, but not. Not when I'm exhausted, basically.

Emma: 

Yeah, exactly. The times where you can't even read a book because you can't keep your eyes on the page or being in chronic pain or discomfort. Doesn't even have to be pain. I mean, I vary on the scale. I'm not in pain all the time. Not at all. I'm in pain for an amount of time. I mean, discomfort a lot of the time. And even, like, discomfort. Ongoing, ongoing, ongoing, ongoing. It's just utterly mentally draining. So, yeah, I feel that very strongly that when my body is not allowing me to do any of the things that lift me, it's a difficult place. It's a difficult place. Yeah.

Rachel: 

I mean, it's really interesting to talk for me personally, to talk to you in this current moment, because I feel like what I've done is so I'm, like I said, I'm similarly, like, just cannot, you know, not be doing a number of projects. And I've. I think what happened for me is I came to think of that as a real weakness. I was like, I need to learn how to do nothing. Like that would make me a better person. And I've kind of pushed myself in, you know, further and further toward, like, I got to do less, I got to do less, I got to do less. You know, there's a pendulum here, and I think this is how we all experiment with, like, where our balance is. 

But I am starting right now to rethink whether that is that right actually is the goal to do as little as possible and learn to be fully happy doing as little as possible? I mean, to your point, everything is a trade off, right? I could choose to do something that pushes me beyond my limits and pay the consequences. I could choose to eat pizza and pay the consequences. I could choose to do nothing and not eat anything but green juice. And, you know, I don't think it's obvious where the right place is in that spectrum for. And I think it probably varies per individual. And I think that's one thing that I feel like I'm starting to come across as I talk to more and more folks, because we like the idea that there's, like, a right place to land and that we could know it and then we could implement some tactics and do it. But I actually think it might be more individual and require just a lot of experimentation. I'm curious what you think about that.

Emma: 

Oh, I think you're absolutely spot on. I mean, there is a huge narrative around rest and what rest means, which was coming back to your question of a short while ago, and, you know, the whole benefits of mindfulness and meditation and all that kind of thing, it doesn't work for me. It's not something I have been able to find rest in. And, you know, when I was doing my chronic fatigue therapy, they talked a lot about rest, and they were like, well, reading a book is not rest.

Rachel: 

And watching just briefly, like, what is chronic fatigue therapy?

Emma: 

So, in England, the NHS, I got enrolled onto a one year program where basically we would meet up online in a group every couple of weeks and we'd be set exercises, you know, first of all, just cracking activities and then learning about pacing and then understanding what that meant and trying to understand what your own triggers were and that kind of thing, which meant I. I learned for me that cognitive fatigue is huge. I mean, physical, yes, but cognitive fatigue is a massive one for me. So when I'm in what I call shutdown, and my mum, for example, who's amazing and wonderful and wants to come over and help, but she'll come over and ask me a million questions and she'll want to talk to me and say, what can I do for you? Do you want some food? And, can I do this? And I'm like, I can't speak. I can't speak. So cognitive fatigue is a thing for me, driving. I learned that driving is a massive fatigue trigger, you know, so just finding out yourself. But to your question of, you know, should we be striving to all rest more?

Rachel: 

Right.

Emma: 

I think about what we do. Where we get our respite is very individual. So for me, the water is a place and it's not that I'm going and swimming, swimming and going off and swimming a kilometer. Some days I will, but I might just go and float because it gives me that mental respite and writing gives me that when I go into flow, writing, as I, as it can be referred to. So not when I'm thinking, right, I need to write a sub stack because I've got, you know, paid membership and I need to get this out. Not. I mean, I love that writing, but. Or not writing for a deadline or competition or a journalism piece, you know, not the writing where there's a sort of an obligation attached. But if I go into just free writing, oh, my God, I just feel light as a feather. And again, my mum was around, she said, Emma, you're always writing. I said, yeah, I know, but today I'm free writing.

Rachel: 

Right.

Emma: 

Do you know what I mean? That makes sense. Absolutely.

Rachel: 

No, I know exactly what you mean. I feel the same way, but I haven't ever articulated it quite the way you just did. But I feel the same way.

Emma: 

Yeah. And I mean, I know for some people it might be journaling, but I'm not, you know, I'm not a morning person, so I won't get up and do morning pages. I love the concept of it, but I just something will come to me and, you know, I was in a writing hour yesterday and my first book is in the world or about to be in the world. My second book is in progress, and I have an idea for a third book, and I'm really stuck on my second book. And I thought, I just want to do the third book. And so I was like, I'm going to chuck the narrative away that I need to finish number two because it might not even come to anything. Number three might become number two. And I sat there yesterday and I just wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote and gathered pieces, and I had 7000 words by the end of the day, and I felt high as a kite. I was like, oh, my God. Because I let myself write without boundaries. And for me, that was restful.

Rachel: 

Totally. And I think, you know, you've said a couple things that are really interesting because even some of the, like, anti health tips, advice and thinking still feels, like, full of shoulds. Like, you should meditate and you should, you know, learn. I mean, I think those two things are almost like, implied a lot of the time. And you're like, you know, I love the idea of morning pages. That's great, but not for me. I love the idea of meditating. Be cool, but not for me. And I think, like, remembering that we can say that about even something like meditation is really important because I can feel like that's the ultimate goal. Like being able to sit with an empty mind for 2 hours each morning at 06:00 a.m. i. Like, then I'd be like, really have made it. That's obviously not true for everyone. That's the best outcome. No.

Emma: 

And it's been quite liberating for me to realize that. And it's been very recent. I mean, I'm talking like the last month where I've been, like, I never want to be in the 05:00 a.m. club. I do not, you know, I need to do that. Get up, do an hour of yoga or ten minutes of yoga, do some stretching, do my morning pages, have a cup of herbal tea and do this. And then, you know, and I was just like, I let it. I let that go really, really recently. And it was so liberating. I thought, you know, this thing, like, if people perceive that if I, if I'm tired and I want to rest, that I should go to bed or lie down, it's like, well, if my limbs are throbbing, that's not restful because it actually hurts. But what is restful is if I go and get in the water, because in the water my legs don't hurt. So even though you're like, oh, my God, you're off for a swim. Not like that. You know, like, okay, that is my rest. And on the mental side being that mindfulness is something that I haven't yet come around to. It's not to say I never will, but it's not something I'm striving for. But the writing that I described yesterday is mindful because it got the noise out of my head.

Rachel: 

Yeah, I even. I realized, like, maybe nine months ago that I had even created this mental narrative that guided meditation was, like, somehow lesser than silent meditation. Because, you know, really, if you're good, then you should be. You know, this is all putting all of my ambitious type stuff directly on the, like, project. But, you know, I think about what. What you're kind of drawing out is, like, some of us, in fact, a lot of the chronically ill women I've talked to are ambitious type people. I'm not going to draw any conclusions about that just happens to be the people I'm talking to. And maybe later we'll see some connection. But maybe it's not the goal to denigrate those qualities and rid ourselves of those qualities. And maybe for some people that's the right path, but maybe for others, it's more of finding something that, for you, rest, looks like something that is extremely intense and causes a lot of fear. You know, that's counterintuitive, to say the least.

Emma: 

It wasn't like that straight away.

Rachel: 

No, totally, but. No, but I think that's like, you know, I don't know.

Emma: 

It's just interesting, you know, it's a bit like my meditation. Like you say, you're scared of the open water. I was scared of the open water. You have to practice meditation. You have to practice these things. You have to practice the open water things. If you're scared of it, you practice it and you overcome it and it becomes your thing or a thing. You don't have to have a thing. I think you're so right about this. They don't have to have a thing. And if I go on a retreat or something, I'm very happy to sit there and be on a guided meditation. And I may get some moments of stillness, not a lot, but I really enjoy it. I'm not. I think it's brilliant. I used to kind of wistfully look at people who could meditate and think, God, I want to do that. But again, I've let that go. It's not for me. It's not for me right now.

Rachel: 

I love that. I think that's a super liberating phrase. It's not for me right now because it also doesn't preclude some kind of future engagement with meditation. It's not for. Not for you right now.

Emma: 

Yeah. And my life is, as you know. I know you'll cut it out, but having just had a phone call come through in the middle of this is punctuated with, you know, mum, can you pick me up and can I do this? And, you know, that sort of thing. And so there's also something a bit almost stressful about trying to find a quiet space for an hour because, I mean, my kids go to school, they're teenagers, you know, but it's like, what if someone disturbs me? Whereas if I'm in my writing flow, then I can just be like, yeah, go away, I'm writing. I don't know, maybe there's something there as well. You know, I can create a construct that feels very safe and contained to me in my own ways that suits the busyness of my life and my surroundings.

Rachel: 

I think that's a really important insight and definitely an important one for me right now. So I will be thinking about that. You just mentioned your kids and I'm really curious about how you think about talking about rest with them. And given that you're a very vibrant and passionate person, I'm assuming they both are, too. When you think about pushing them versus talking about rest or even encouraging rest, how do you think about it? I don't expect you to have answers because what parent really has answers? But, like, you know, do you hope they'll have a different relationship to work and rest than you do? Or do you feel like they'll find their way and that's. You're kind of just there to be there when needed and that's not your role. To, like, guide them into what, push or guide them one way or another?

Emma: 

Yeah, I mean, I certainly don't push. And their relationship with expectations is probably very different to mine, which is a generational thing. I mean, myself and my husband are very much like, do what you want. I mean, my parents were great, to be fair. They weren't like, you know, they didn't hothouse me or anything, but I was always very driven. I mean, one of my daughters is a national gymnast. I mean, they're not short of drive. She's also got ADHD, where she was diagnosed this week. So, you know, there's a lot there. And in terms of her rest, her physicality is either extraordinary and explosive and, you know, training 20 hours a week or she's asleep. So that's something we're exploring through and what we just discovered about how she presents in the world.

So, yeah, I mean, you'll always be a role model as a parent, whether you want to be or not, because they will model on what you do and what you see. And they're pretty good at, you know, observing and helping me. And they might say, mom, maybe you're a bit tired because I'm being crabby or something. I'm like, okay. You know, they've got a really sharp awareness, but they're very smart kids. They're very switched on. My older one, who's nearly 18, the one who was really sick when she was little, she's hyper intuitive. And, yeah, there's just no expectations on them. They go to university, they don't go to university. It's fine, we give them all the options. I'm not like, complete lays day fair. Do what you like. Just like the one thing I say to them is that there was always another way. There was always another way. 

Whether you go now, whether you don't go, whether you choose to go, whether you do something else, whether you work here, whether you don't work, you know, there is always another path, and you can always change your mind. And I think they've seen that from me because they've seen me be an air traffic controller, and then they've seen me in this other career where I was flying off to Washington and meeting NASA and doing all sorts of stuff, and then they saw me run my own business and work in a bookshop. And then now they see me at home all the time, writing. So I don't think I need to necessarily show them a different way because I don't think about myself or I wouldn't have done that. So I do want to emphasize that as well. 

I mean, despite. It's not been easy, I don't really have regrets, and I don't look back at it and think, oh, God, Emma, why didn't you stop there? Why didn't you? You know, why didn't you notice that about yourself before? Because I'm a lot kinder to myself now, and I'm a lot kinder to the self that was experiencing all of that. I wasn't able to stop. I was deeply grieving when it all started to go wrong. And, you know, at my daughter's birth, we thought she was going to die the day she was born. Taken into intensive care. It was extraordinarily stressful. And then my brother died just a couple of weeks later unexpectedly through hospital malpractice. I won't go, you know, for a time. It's in the book. But anyway, I didn't get to process any of that. And then I went into an intense grieving process. So I. I don't sort of look back and even think, oh, Emmy, you should have done that differently. I sort of think, you know, you did the best that you could. And that's the kind of a message I give to my children, is you do the best that you can with what's available to you at the time. And for them to know that I will always back them up. I will always have their back. I will always support them. I will always love them, and I will inform and guide them as much as I can. But the decision is theirs, and no decision is a wrong decision because they can always remake it.

Rachel: 

Yeah, I think that we all need that voice saying those things in our head all the time.

Emma: 

Yeah, it takes a long, long time to get there. I mean, I'm now in my early fifties, and I still have to, you know, check myself a lot, but it gets easier as you get older, and I love that I can instill that in them and try, because when you're in your teens and twenties, that is not the narrative you hold in your head.

Rachel: 

I am going to be thinking about a number of these topics over the course of the week, and I'm looking forward to re-listening to this.

Emma: 

There were so many of us, and it does come back to, I think, your last guest, Sarah, said something like, one of the things she learned was to forgive. Was it to forgive herself for being sick? That really struck a chord with me. It's like, I didn't. We didn't sign up for this. You know, I feel bad sometimes for my husband because I'm like, I said to him not long ago, do you think you have a sick wife? And he. Yes. And that made me so sad. I was like, God, you think you have a sick wife? I'm really sorry. I said you didn't sign up to have a sick wife, but then I didn't sign up to have a sick life. And I have a lot of time where I'm healthy and, well, you know, because I think, as well, sometimes people are like, well, how can you be sick? You go swimming all the time and you're always here and you're at the book festival, and you went to this, and it's like, yeah, but you don't see all the other stuff because I can't move. But, yeah, so just the self kindness and, you know, it's an ongoing way. And there are no tips and tricks, which is why I love what you do, Rachel, because it's not in the top ten. Because there is no top ten. There is no eat this, eat that, drink this, don't drink that. It does. It's too individual. Find the best way we can.

Rachel: 

I loved this conversation. I mean, I love all of them, but I really loved this one. There is always a nugget or two that I take forward. For me, the aha. Moment with Emma was when she said, meditation just isn't for me right now. And also being a morning person, that's not me right now. And I love this because sometimes, even when I'm trying to be really open minded about different approaches to illness and my symptoms, I still get really stuck in shuts like, I should meditate. That's really been a mental loop for me for a long time, and I just loved the idea of saying, that's not for me right now, because it allows that to be for me. Later, maybe, or not. And I think hearing Emma share how other activities got her into that calmed mental space was really eye opening. For her, it's swimming and free riding, and for someone else, it could be something totally different. This is a good reminder for me that the menu of options is really long, and the goal is to find what works for me, not what works for someone else, or even for most people. I also think that Emma's advice to her kids is something that I can use in so many moments. There's always another way. There's always another way.